# still too long in development hell another chat with long nguyen another chat with 'out of hell' mod developer long nguyen about agile garme design summary: the lower-rez art style that indie horror garmes require do to not automatically scale well with bigger / excessively ambitious projects **+** developing a garme's artstyle is more important for ooh **+** ooh2 is still taking too long to make because of the high poly models used **+** make teh garme smaller and modular (release level by level) but more dense - ie. richer as abstract systems of meaning **+** echo the aesthetic strengths of the first version; stephanie sterling says horror should look ugly: go lower-poly and ensure teh garme feels 'ugly' as the first version looks today. it's a matter of suitability for the job (of horror) **+** make teh garme open source so it can be modded by flans (eg. on steam workshop) long's first garme setting dripped with atmosphere deliberate pacing and carefully measured encounters // video here ir current remake of the original mod features updated graphics and an extended design scope the original took ir seven years to make however - and ir new version also still seems to be grinding under a too-similar developmental approach however while the first take took too long due to the strict technical limitations of the old engine this version's more extensive overly complex graphical ambitions will also take too long to implement -perhaps precisely because new garme engines actively encourage such 'aaa' behavior in devs too often however developer ambitions do not scale well with the unnecessary levels of polish and professionalism seen in and implied by garme engine demos which only seem to set a higher aesthetic bar but as garme development interfaces are just more unnecessarily complex; sure you can do infinitely more than before but often to the cost of your art style vision such polish often mistakenly triumphs atmosphere pacing and deliberate nuanced design - which far more important and interesting than the slow crafting of pixel perfect / high polygon models (caption id="attachment_36268" align="aligncenter" width="656") that gritty look with strong art direction: out of hell (original version)(/caption) after all this isn't witcher or gta; bigger maps are not automatically better - rather consider how your map size relates to the density of a garme's possible narrative interactions and overall mood / garme feel that is rather than scaling down one's ambitions make more effective art / design choices using the minimum necessary elements used to maximum effect; better a consistent art style than a high rez snooze fest with little character or charm when worse is better the rapid or agile design philosophy "worse is better" seems a better approach for smaller developer teams this somehow seems to echo stephanie sterling's observation that horror garmes should be 'ugly' and that high levels of aesthetic gloss and polish work against any kind of grungy atmosphere a chat with long nguyen monday 16th march. call to long nguyen robert what: hello? long nguyen: hey how goes it? robert what: hey hey! robert what: cool - how's things? long nguyen: things are going good! busy with work but otherwise business as usual. :d how about you? robert what: yeah good thanks been busy - just put another post up about your project (this one) robert what: i don't know anything about your current project other than what' i've seen on your blog so i'm making a lot of assumptions - hope you don't mind ;-) long nguyen: not at all the blog post is good. :) robert what: basically as an objective outsider i'd humbly suggest: go low poly release modular long nguyen: modular as in the assets being modular or teh garme being episodic? robert what: both - allow flans to mod teh garme and make teh garme an early access title - essentially as i see it all you have to do to make ooh2 a hit is simply ('simply' ;-) remake teh garme frame for frame - just in the new engine with better lighting and a few more interactive in-garme items (traps ladders etc.) robert what: the hi-poly approach is a mistake imo; go ugly but atmospheric - just like the first. robert what: did you ever get someone to help out with making models? long nguyen: i haven't been able to find anyone suitable yet. i had been doing it myself since robert what: see that's just it - i'm not sure you have much of a choice except to adopt agile / rapid early access development - you don't have to scale back your ambitions for teh garme but you should work off the inherent strengths of your first title - atmosphere level design pacing measured encounters density of in-world items - your whole 'lived-in look' robert what: i mean the new unreal engine can make even crappy garmes look awesome without trying ;-) long nguyen: only from a lighting/shader complexity point of view however. if the assets themselves weren't updated to take advantage of the new engine devs may as well release all garmes on the quake 2 engine. :) robert what: yes that's true - but what i'm suggesting is that the horror atmosphere of ooh demands an overall 'rougher' look - low poly models still have to be designed well - personally i just don't think the very polished looking models of your new monsters look half as terrifying as your old ones. long nguyen: usually there is a lot more than simply 'porting' something from one engine to another. i've had several people suggest merely ripping everything out of ooh and just importing it into ue4. this will still take quite a bit of time to do and in the long run it just seems more sensible to build it from the ground up for the new engine long nguyen: i understand what you're saying. the ooh remake will retain the 'gritty rough lived-in' look because that is the artistic style that i'm most strong in. the new monsters looking more polished is largely because they've been lit and displayed in such away to show them off as concept stills robert what: yeah even simple ports take ages - and they often create as much work in terms of new original bugs and glitches.. basically speaking as a fan i'm not particularly looking for a new and improved ooh version but more simply something which is closer to how you wanted it to be the first time around - but are now able to more easily make due to the improved engine (more in-scene lights etc.) robert what: ah yes long nguyen: inside teh garme however they will look different because of lighting (or lack of!) and different shaders. :) robert what: here's one example of an almost-no-poly garme that's creepy: http://kittyhorrorshow.itch.io/chyrza robert what: and here's another example with a 'rough' style - but a crappy backstory unlike ooh: total chaos mod long nguyen: overgrowth looks flocking fantastic!! robert what: yeps long nguyen: i see 'style' as something that is separate from poly count' however robert what: for me your garme had good ideas to begin with and these were (mainly) well conveyed through atmosphere long nguyen: it's still possible in my opinion to have highly complex models that don't take away from the rough and atmospheric qualities of something like ooh robert what: i agree - style is er.. what garmes have style i wonder? fez perhaps? rez definitely. killer 7 especially ;-) robert what: that's very true - but for the life of me i cant really think of a true horror garme that has the particular aaa polish of (say) the new bloodborne final fantasy or er. robert what: as stephanie sterling says in that video in my new post - horror = ugly; a bit simplistic but pretty much spot on - although isn't ey a fiend for silent hill? long nguyen: i can't think of many modern examples of horror garmes merely because there haven't been true aaa horror garmes for a long long time robert what: here's what i didn't like about the evil within long nguyen: in my opinion horror garmes are a niche market and don't tend to generate as much money as say a fast-paced military shooter garme. so companies won't really take the risks usually associated with making a horror garme robert what: or a faced paced military shooter with zombies ;-) robert what: so are you currently using the new unreal engine? long nguyen: horror garmes nowadays aren't horror in the sense that say you and i are used to. the approach nowadays is a lot of auto-saving linearity hand-holding lots of action sequences and overpowered weapons etc robert what: agreed - just found this: http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/03/six-elements-that-make-for-a-quality-survival-horror-garme/ long nguyen: all of which undermined any attempt at horror anyways which is why there aren't any aaa horror garmes anymore. :) long nguyen: great page i'm bookmarking it robert what: which is why indie lo-fi neat and nimble and too the point using the minimum of effective elements to maximum dread effect. robert what: ooh has all those six elements plus a cool story! long nguyen: have you ever played a garme called stalker: call of pripyat? if you haven''t you owe it to yourself to try it robert what: yeah i really liked it - those weather effects and the overall creepiness in the tunnels; a really nice engine that robert what: thing is horror garmes in indie terms are more like 5 nights at freddy's which are more jump scary than dread-ful - which i dislike ;-( long nguyen: my favorite aspect of the stalker atmosphere is the loneliness and having to venture out into unknown territory knowing that no help is coming. ooh has always been about that so that itself won't change robert what: i recommend modifying the way you present or especially suggest a narrative - overlayed text seems a bit wack nowadays as do audio logs - do you plan to have voice acting? robert what: ah yes i knew there was a perfect example of lower-poly indie horror: http://www.cry-of-fear.com/ long nguyen: very true i'm not a huge fan of jumpscares. sometimes it is needed to help establish a sense of dread or unease in the beginning but i won't employ much of that. i'm planning on having even less ammunition in the remake. the weaponry itself may be powerful because not many things should be able to take a shotgun blast to the face and keep walking but you are going to have to live with the fact that those may be the last 3 shells that you'll find for a long time so should you use them now? this is one of the approaches i'll take to instill dread long nguyen: i am still planning on having the majority of conversations presented in text. personally i've always found that it is more convincing if any characters sound the way i imagine them to in my head as i read it rather than having that voiced for me robert what: if you need some help with narrative i'd be all to happy to help out - i dig the main character and would like to know more about how ey copes psychologically with the intense isolation robert what: perhaps if ey wrote things in a small notebook diary that the player could open and read or something. long nguyen: i haven't thought of that approach yet it seems like an interesting avenue robert what: or if you want to be generally more update and have a cool in-garme gadget an old pda that the player could use to check on stats like heath etc. long nguyen: oh there are no more 'stats' in the usual sense of the word. you won't even have an onscreen ammunition count. ;) robert what: are you thinking of doing that 'look at gun to view ammo in clip' thing? that would be neat long nguyen: just a true-first-person view. audio and visual cues will let you know how damaged/close to death you are. ammunition is counted in a similar method to condemned: criminal origins where it needs to be checked long nguyen: yes that's it! robert what: was just thinking a possible key selling point for ooh2 would be a port to/for oculus; players seem to be flipping out for first-person horror garmes with virtuality. long nguyen: man that would be great. i haven't looked into occulus rift yet but that is a thing that i will keep in mind. this garme seems made for it robert what: condemned is one hell of a series even if the story is pure cheese long nguyen: i've only played the first it was a good one. i heard mixed about the second so i stayed away robert what: ok long good talking to you again it's 2am here and i'm beat. i hope you found this chat productive - all the best with your project. i'm always here when you need someone to discuss ideas with long nguyen: not a problem great touching base with you too! if you need anything don't hesitate to drop me a line!! robert what: thanks. l8ers // republic of bob